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E-M:/ Market, externalities, and two year olds



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Enviro-Mich message from Tim Flynn <tflynn@freeway.net>
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On 2/24/98 9:58 PM JerrodM@aol.com wrote:
>Reply: Nobody mentioned dollars until you did. Why the obsession? I was
>talking about freedom ... such as how many windows or what size toilet I can
>have in "my castle." Please don't try to stuff your preconceptions into 
my>observations. 

Jerrod: You were the one talking markets, as the only valid mechanism for 
protecting this thing you use the word freedom to signify.   Most of us 
have a different view of freedom that take into account more than just 
the first part of this definition:
1. The condition of being free of restraints.
2. Liberty of the person from slavery, detention, or oppression (from the 
extra pollution   your extra fossil fuel burning causes, due to your 
refusal to accept standards for efficiency).
3.a. Political independence (ie right to vote in a democracy). b. 
Possession of civil rights; immunity from the arbitrary exercise of 
authority ( multinational corps throwing their weight around in a "free" 
market).
4. Exemption from an unpleasant or onerous condition: freedom from want ( 
the emptiness caused by market fueled forest cutting, and the loss of 
species or the loss of lung power, what for air-pretty basic need, cause 
by excessive energy use).
5. The capacity to exercise choice; free will ( my right to live in a 
civil democratic, society).

The obsession is yours, your denial of the primacy of the dollar, and who 
has how many, in the determination of how markets allocate resources is 
not the at all reasonable nor believable.

>Reply: You really have to get beyond that obsession with dollars. And a
>demokratische sozialistiche (oops, wrong language) "process" is indeed by
>definition a limit on freedom. Your claimed right to set standards had damned
>well better be founded in the Constitution, or you have no such right in this
>country. See next paragraph.

>Reply: YES! You got it! And at the same time, they had damned well not be
>swinging their code-book-laden fists in my direction!
Jerrod:
See constitutional argument below.   Our right to vote and affect policy 
so we can stop the childish behave with a "code-book-laden" code of 
behavior, increase most of the rooms citizen's freedom.   Freedom to do 
what ever you want is not really freedom, it is real just the behavior of 
a two year old.

>Reply: Oops ... "the externality of energy consumption?" Sorry, but you are a
>long way from establishing that my windows are an economic externality 
Jerrod:
Again you have been given may such argument, you're just unwilling to 
hear them.

> More
>importantly and more ominously, who gets to decide? I say that the market is
>the best arbiter we have, and that people decide freely when they operate
>within it. You can't get more democratic. 
Jerrod:
Let me help you with the ominously democratic processes in the US.   You 
say I must find it in the constitution, well let's start with the first 
sentence, "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union"   looks 
like support for community action to me.    Also, one person one vote is 
deeply embedded in the Constitution.

On the other hand, one dollar one vote is NOT in the Constitution.   And 
yes you really do need dollars to run a market.   How you can think 
otherwise is beyond me.  Do you really think you have the "freedom" that 
Bill Gates does in an unfettered market society?   We gave the vote to 
the people of this country for the purpose of offsetting this 
dollar/wealth power, it was *the* great revolutionary idea that the birth 
of this country produced.

Your simple view of "freedom" is to me the produce of a two year olds 
world view, it is unfortunate that their are so many, in this day and 
age, that have failed to grow up.

And finally Jerrod, you have not listen to the views of others, and 
instead look to dirty their motives in response.  This is a clear signal 
of the lack of depth of your world view that you must attack the 
messenger not the message.
Therefore I shall end this discussion here and now.

And to others on this list, sorry for the electronic waste this 
"discussion" involved, But we must always "rage, rage against the dying 
of" LIFE.

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Tim Flynn   tflynn@freeway.net    PO Box 308, Harbor Springs, MI 49740


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