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Re: E-M:/ re: THe huron Manistee X-MAS LIST



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Enviro-Mich message from "Anthony D'Amico" <anthonydamico@seanbaby.com>
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Oh oh, it looks like someone won't be getting an x-mas card this year!

-Anthony "Fat Tony" D'Amico




---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Frank Ambrose" <fambrose@bloomington.in.us>
Reply-To: "Frank Ambrose" <fambrose@bloomington.in.us>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:12:08 -0400

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Enviro-Mich message from "Frank Ambrose" <fambrose@bloomington.in.us>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Murray,
>
>What in the world are you doing? You are reposting a message that was sent
>TWO years ago to the enviro mich list. Why are you trying to continue your
>silly "war" with the Sierra Club by striking up more controversy over an
>issue that is long dead. How is bringing up old bags of dirty laundry
>helping us get any further in the movement to end commercial logging? (It
>isnt.)
>
>Please dont use me as a pawn in your games to try to discredit other
>activists work. Please just do what you do to protect the forests and keep
>to yourself. There is no need to try to drag others down to make yourself
>feel better. You are not helping anything (imagine being a new person to
>forest protection and seeing a veteran male activist treat a woman activist
>who "dares" to speak her mind like she is dirt. Would that make you feel
>safe in the movement? Wouldn't make you think about ever approaching a more
>experienced activist with a thought that differed from what everyone else is
>thinking?)
>
>Frank
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Murphwild1@aol.com>
>To: <enviro-mich@great-lakes.net>
>Cc: <Murphwild1@aol.com>
>Sent: September 29, 2000 3:14 PM
>Subject: E-M:/ re: THe huron Manistee
>
>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Enviro-Mich message from Murphwild1@aol.com
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Anne,
>>
>>
>> Why do you fail to mention the National Sierra Club policy of End
>Commercial
>> Logging (ECL)?
>>
>> Mr. Ambrose's suggestions are totally consistent with what forest
>activists
>> should be doing, and these forests belong to ALL Americans.  Your effort
>to
>> marginalize Mr. Ambrose or his message by suggesting he is "afar" is not
>the
>> kind of team effort we need to continue the battle to stop the logging and
>> destruction of biodiversity in our public lands. While it is unfortunate
>that
>> the Mackinaw is out of step with the rest of the conservation community on
>> National Forests, please do not denegrate the work of others who are
>actually
>> making progress in the forest battle.
>>
>> Regards to blowdown in HMNF, you fail to mention why these blowdowns are
>> happening.  Continued conversion of forests to tree farms will always
>create
>> conditions for "blowdowns." Is it yours and Sierra Clubs (Mackinaw)
>position
>> to support salvage logging??
>>
>>
>> What do you mean by "this forest needs less of the blunt instrument
>approach
>> that is necessary in many other forests."  This does not make any sense to
>me
>> and provides us with no context whatsoever. Could you tell us what you
>mean?
>>
>>
>> Anne writes: "With any luck the new forest plan process may officially be
>> underway sometime soon, and your comments are essential on that, since
>that
>> sets the overall management of this forest for the next 10 to 15 years."
>>
>> You seem to contradict yourself by now suggesting IT IS essential to "make
>a
>> point of reading the NEPA quarterly for the HMNF, looking at acres being
>cut
>> and commenting.." If one does not do these basic things, their comments
>will
>> not be informed.  Doing the day in and day out work of monitoring a timber
>> program does not compare with showing up for two meetings a year. And, not
>> all of us are paid so well to do the earths work as you, and cannot always
>be
>> at meetings while holding down real jobs or simply having the resources to
>do
>> so.  In fact, the meetings the FS and Sierra Club are so fond of, are not
>a
>> measure of one's success as a conservationist.
>>
>> Anne, how can you be so discouraging/cynical to someone who is actually
>> participating in the "process?"  Maybe Mr. Ambrose is helping out on the
>HMNF
>> because activists in Indiana have pretty much stopped all logging in their
>> National Forest.  You should listen and learn from them.
>>
>>
>> Murray Dailey
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: anne.woiwode@sfsierra.sierraclub.org
>> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 98 15:10:32 -0800
>> To: <fambrose@igc.apc.org>, <enviro-mich@great-lakes.net>
>> Subject: E-M:/ THe huron Manistee
>> Sender: owner-enviro-mich@great-lakes.net
>> Reply-To: anne.woiwode@sfsierra.sierraclub.org
>> List-Name: Enviro-Mich
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Enviro-Mich message from anne.woiwode@sfsierra.sierraclub.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I appreciate Frank Ambrose providing info on what is going on the Huron
>> Manistee NF, but would strongly urge that anyone who is actually
>> interested in
>> the forests in this area make a point of doing more than just simply
>reading
>> the NEPA quarterly for the HMNF, looking at acres being cut and commenting
>> from afar. This is a unique National Forest in the nation, as far as I can
>> tell. It has an extraordinarily welcoming process for anyone in the
>> public to
>> participate in their activities. A twice yearly Friends of the Forest
>> meeting
>> is held in the spring and the fall, usually in Cadillac, open to anyone
>who
>> wants to attend (The meetings usually involve between 60 and 100 members
>of
>> the public, along with FS staff). They send out over 900 notices of those
>> meetings, but if you are not on their list, request to be put on so you
>can
>> get the notices. The forest has a web page now with all the information
>> as>well:
>>
>> http://users.netonecom.net/~hurmannf/hmdoc5a.htm
>>
>> The openness does not mean that there is not controversy. In fact, it is
>> common at these meetings that major disputes erupt. Over the last few
>years,
>> the timber industry and a handful of hunting groups have been pounding the
>> agency claiming they are not putting up enough aspen for sale. I MUCH
>prefer
>> that that debate takes place in this public forum than behind closed doors
>> with the public shut out. And there is no question we need a lot more
>> people who use and care about the Huron Manistee showing up at these
>meetings
>> so that when the new planning process actually gets going the voices of
>those
>> who care about biodiversity, about quiet recreation, and other important
>uses
>> of these forests are heard. You can count on the industry and other
>> consumptive users being there.
>>
>> If something is not on the NEPA Quarterly that is required to be, then the
>> Forest Service is prohibited from moving ahead with actions. This forest
>has
>> been particularly diligent in raising issues that they think may be
>> controversial. In fact, some staff have raised things that they probably
>> could have gotten away with, without breaking any rules and in some cases
>> without the public even knowing about it. Case in point is the first half
>of
>> the salvage sale operation near Luzerne, for which the second half of the
>> project is currently under review as listed in the NEPA Quarterly. The
>> blowdown occurred in July last year, and both the Forest Service and the
>DNR
>> experienced extensive blow down areas. The DNR didn't even take a breath
>> before letting a sale in the Mason Tract, without any consultation on how
>to
>> treat what is a naturally occurring disturbance. All the trees were
>removed
>> without a thought to biodiversity considerations.
>>
>> The Forest Service had 2000 acres of a 3000 acre blow down on their lands.
>> They asked enviros, timber industry, local officials including the fire
>chief
>> at Luzerne, and others to convene to look at the site and discuss possible
>> ways to proceed. That discussion assured no short cutting of the NEPA
>> review,
>> but it also led to the Forest Service moving the "red flag" areas, ie
>those
>> areas that posed a very real fire threat to the town of Luzerne (basically
>a
>> funnel up a river valley dropping right into the town) first, with a
>second
>> project for the less dangerous sites. It also led to proposals that the FS
>> leave some islands of blow down throughout the area as reservoirs of
>natural
>> disturbance, both for study and to provide habitat etc. Comments on the
>> second half of this are needed to reenforce this kind of approach.
>>
>> There are a lot of things we disagree with about the management of the
>Huron
>> Manistee, among them that the old growth plan has been in the works for 12
>> years without being completed. And there is no question that there needs
>to
>> be more public input into management of this forest. But I would suggest
>> this
>> forest needs less of the blunt instrument approach that is necessary in
>> manyother forests, and more of the find out whats going on and SHOW UP
>> approach.
>> With any luck the new forest plan process may officially be underway
>sometime
>> soon, and your comments are essential on that, since that sets the overall
>> management of this forest for the next 10 to 15 years.
>>
>> If you would like to know more about these activities, or about how to
>> comment
>> on Forest Service projects, please contact me and I'll get you the info
>you
>> need.
>>
>> Anne Woiwode
>> Sierra Club
>> (517) 484-2372
>>
>> ==============================================================
>> ENVIRO-MICH:  Internet List and Forum for Michigan Environmental
>> and Conservation Issues and Michigan-based Citizen Action.   Archives at
>> http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/enviro-mich/
>>
>> Postings to:  enviro-mich@great-lakes.net      For info, send email to
>> majordomo@great-lakes.net  with a one-line message body of  "info
>enviro-mich"
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>
>
>==============================================================
>ENVIRO-MICH:  Internet List and Forum for Michigan Environmental
>and Conservation Issues and Michigan-based Citizen Action.   Archives at
>http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/enviro-mich/
>
>Postings to:  enviro-mich@great-lakes.net      For info, send email to
>majordomo@great-lakes.net  with a one-line message body of  "info enviro-mich"
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