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Re: E-M:/ Doves and Hunters



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Enviro-Mich message from "Todd Toulouse" <ttoulous@flint.umich.edu>
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As an exhunter I can vouch for the fact that hunters can be 
environmentalists and that indeed, many are.
I do however disagree with the statement that hunters don't enjoy 
the act of killing.  Man can live without killing animals and those 
who do so make this choice strictly for the sake of their appetites 
and desires.  I myself cannot justify causing pain to other living 
things when I can live a happy and healthy life without causing this 
pain and death.  I walk the woods without a gun in hand and enjoy  
it more now than ever. (Oh, I don't however walk the woods during 
deer season - I was accidently shot at by a hunter back in '96 - I'm 
happy to report that he was a bad shot).

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --- Enviro-Mich message from "wmeac water2" <wmeacwater2@hotmail.com>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> 
> : )
> 
> This is terrible of me, but I hear mourning doves are truly delectable
> eating. I don't enjoy killing things and I don't hunt, but when I read
> "the smell of the game cooking" I began to salivate. I guess I am a
> carniverous environmentalist.
> 
> I think when you kill something yourself and prepare and eat it, you
> understand spiritually exactly where that food came from. If one is
> going to be carniverous, hunting is certainly more primal, and perhaps
> spiritually more healthy than letting anonymous others raise and
> butcher your meat.
> 
> The part I don't like about hunting is the irresponsible hunters who
> poach, shoot within 150 feet of AND in the direction of my house,
> shoot at deer and other animals from canoes in the river (isn't that
> illegal?), dump poached deer carcasses into the local stream after
> they butcher it, etc. There is another carcass down there this week.
> It seems to be up to me and my neighbors to get these people caught,
> because the enforcing agencies can't be everywhere at once.
> 
> These same unpleasant people, if permitted to shoot at mourning doves,
> will be standing illegally in the road in front of my house shooting
> at the telephone wires at 5:30 a.m., I just know it. This is why I am
> against it.
> 
> (although, if Delevan is cooking....)
> 
> Patricia
> 
> 
> >From: "Delavan Sipes" <delavan@cybersol.com>
> >Reply-To: "Delavan Sipes" <delavan@cybersol.com>
> >To: "Enviro-Mich" <enviro-mich@great-lakes.net>
> >Subject: Re: E-M:/ Doves and Hunters
> >Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:50:38 -0500
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >---- Enviro-Mich message from "Delavan Sipes" <delavan@cybersol.com>
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >----
> >
> >Memo to Richard Hitz and others of similar ilk,
> >Your statements are well founded and very well said.  Thanks for
> >stating on EM that, which many of us who hunt feel.  The joy is not
> >in the kill.  In fact, it is rather sad to see an animal small or
> >large, to fall because of my action.  And it is work to clean any of
> >them.  The joy is in being in the field, forest or swamp, and in the
> >smell of the game cooking and in the eating.  I believe it is
> >understandable, to those of us who feel this way, why the native
> >americans gave thanks for their bounty and asked forgiveness for
> >having made the kill. For those who choose to hide the killing by
> >letting others do it for them, and then claim that hunting is "bad,
> >bad, BAD", I can only feel sorrow, toward their lack of
> >understanding.  For those who kill for the joy of killing, I can only
> >feel anger toward their lack of understanding.  For those who kill to
> >put free range, organically grown meat on the table, (while enjoying
> >the hunt, but not the kill) I feel empathy, because they understand.
> >Del Sipes ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Hitz Consulting
> >&Design <rehitz@umich.edu> To: enviro-mich
> ><enviro-mich@great-lakes.net> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 10:16
> >AM Subject: E-M:/ Doves and Hunters
> >
> >
> > > 
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >----
> > > Enviro-Mich message from Richard Hitz Consulting &Design
> ><rehitz@umich.edu>
> > > 
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >----
> > >
> > > I am a hunter. I am also an environmentalist--I cannot seperate
> > > the two.  For many years I have been advocating the creation of
> > > native, old growth forests on state lands and lobbying for the
> > > reduction of massive clearcuts and timber harvest mandates. Yet, I
> > > am an avid grouse hunter and stand at odds with the Roughed Grouse
> > > Society at the NRC meetings and local compartment reviews.  It
> > > saddens me when other hunters consider deer, grouse and turkey
> > > habitat management as a positive, environment friendly activity. I
> > > am saddened by the NRA's shrill and unyielding position on
> > > handguns and registration. I am saddened by the "slob" hunters'
> > > soul-less killing. As I follow the debate on dove hunting I have
> > > come to realize there are also "slob" enviromentalists. People who
> > > speak with conviction and venom without knowledge. Based on my own
> > > experience I would like to address a few myths I've heard in this
> > > debate that are personally insulting.
> > >
> > > 1) The passenger pigeon was as much a victim of habitat loss as
> > > hunting.  As I said earlier, I advocate the return of old growth
> > > hardwood forests (passenger pigeon habitat) without any hope of
> > > ever seeing or shooting a passenger pigeon.  Old forests are good
> > > for all of us and we have been diminsihed by their disappearance.
> > >
> > > 2) It is a joy to hunt and eat the flesh of an animal I have
> > > killed. There is no joy in the killing.  There is sadness and
> > > remorse knowing I must take a life to live.  But I have chosen to
> > > take that life and would prefer to do so than hire someone to do
> > > it for me. If you eat meat you are responsible for the death of
> > > every animal you consume--are they raised and killed humanely and
> > > with respect? Do you have any idea at all?
> > >
> > > 3) Yes, doves are small and there really isn't much meat on each
> > > one, but how much meat do you need? Two doves will provide all the
> > > protein I need for a day.  By the way, they are incredibly good
> > > much like woodcock and pigeon.  If you follow the "too small"
> > > argument out a few steps further you have to ask is a chicken too
> > > small? A domestic duck? Should we eat only the largest animals on
> > > the planet? What is the "right" size?
> > >
> > > 4) "Doves are our symbol of peace and are peaceful therefore it is
> > > unthinkable and barbaric to eat them."  Are doves more peaceful
> > > than starlings? Are they more deserving of life than any other
> > > being? Why are you not ourtraged that starlings and pigeons may be
> > > shot at any time of the year with no limitations? Because you
> > > don't like them? They're a nuisance? You don't like their plumage,
> > > their song? Because their ancestors came over on the boats like
> > > the rest of the white folks? They don't fit into any of our neat
> > > native ecosystem packages? Are their souls, their spirits less
> > > valuable? Is their imagination less rich? Do you care?
> > >
> > > 5) "Hunters are irresponsibly training their children to be
> > > killers, isn't their enough killing going on?" My ten year old son
> > > and his friends want to kill little animals.  I did when I was a
> > > kid. My father disdained hunting and would not allow guns of any
> > > sort in the house, but when we got our hands on a BB gun we went
> > > after anything that moved.  My son has a BB gun and a 16 gauge
> > > shotgun.  He has been trained to handle each one safely, there is
> > > no mystery or glory for him in handling guns. He knows it is
> > > forbidden to kill without reason and resists, reluctantly, that
> > > strange, primal urge to kill.  I don't know how he'll turn out but
> > > I do know that he has more respect and care for life than I and my
> > > peers did at his age. The reasons people kill each other has
> > > nothing to do with hunting, they happen to commit homocide with
> > > similar tools.
> > >
> > > Finally, if you are a vegetarian I respect your right of choice to
> > > take the lives of plants but not animals. Please respect mine.
> > >
> > > Richard Hitz
> > >
> > >
> > > ==============================================================
> > > ENVIRO-MICH:  Internet List and Forum for Michigan Environmental
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