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Re: E-M:/ Granholm Can't Take it



 I've stayed quiet through this whole debate and quietly deleted the gubernatorial e-mails that have flooded my in-box from enviro-mich for the past few weeks and months, but this comment is just too off the mark.

Mr. Gutterman was advocating for politicians to take strong stands, to be willing to make people angry by disagreeing, to be willing take the heat for supporting things they firmly believe and to firmly believe something.  I agree that people have been turned off to politics by in-fighting and mud-slinging, but in-fighting and mud-slinging implies that you're talking about stuff that doesn't matter .  Taking strong stands on another candidate's positions and past decisions is not mud-slinging and it's not "divisive" politics, as defined by Mr. Diehl.  Frankly, I think more people sit on their hands and don't vote,because they don't think it matters who wins the election -- either because all  politicians are  completely ineffective or they're all the same and they're all bought off by big donors and big corporations.  This primary campaign isn't going to change that opinion one way or the other.
 
 

Alma Lowry

Patrick Diehl wrote:

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Enviro-Mich message from "Patrick Diehl" <patmec@voyager.net>
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Steve Gutterman:

With all due respect, you could not be more incorrect in your assessment
that we need more divisive politics.  It is precisely because of the rabidly
negative tone of politics at all levels that so many voters are apathetic
and sit on their hands.  Read the polling data, Steve.  And when candidates
are forced to redirect the majority of their resources toward defending
themselves from mud-slinging by others in their own party, the opposition
clearly benefits.  The "we need more divisiveness" approach may have worked
for Abby Hoffman and Timothy Leary but that was almost half a century ago.
The times, issues and electorate have changed.  And if you think the
Democratic party doesn't articulate its positions and tries to be everything
to everyone, I wonder what caucuses and conventions you're attending.

Re: Blanchard in 1990: I agree that he didn't run an effective campaign.
But it was primarily because so many Democrats - in Detroit and elsewhere -
didn't bother to head to the polls, thinking we had that one in the bag,
that Engler was victorious.  That loss certainly was not due to ambiguous
Democratic party messages.  You can thank your fellow Democrats for the
"gift" of Engler.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-enviro-mich@great-lakes.net
[mailto:owner-enviro-mich@great-lakes.net]On Behalf Of sgutt@umich.edu
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:09 PM
To: enviro-mich@great-lakes.net
Subject: Re: E-M:/ Granholm Can't Take it

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Enviro-Mich message from sgutt@umich.edu
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I agree that we should be thankful that at least 4 of the 5 gubernatorial
candidates promise a future administration that will be substantially more
environmentally friendly than the Engler administration.  I disagree with
Dave Dempsey, however, that politics should not be played divisively.  This
is a primary, after all, and it is a process of determining the major party
candidates.  Democrats can--and will--come together after Aug. 6 to promote
whoever wins for November.

This is not to condone smear tactics; but a plausible case can be made that
much of the political cynicism amongst mainstream American voters, and the
country's shift to the right over the past two decades, are in part due to
the fact that the Democratic Party long ago ceded the political and moral
debate to the Republican right, and has ever since become too afraid to
stand for any truly discernable values.

Leadership is about bringing people together, but it is also about standing
for taking positions that people can recognize.  And that means stating
forceful, often highly divisive, arguments.  Post-Reagan, the Democratic
Party has bent over backwards to distance itself from its liberal past, and
is terrified of the taint of appearing in any way as either "anti-business"
or "pro-government," which, environmental politics is sometimes necessarily
about.   The consensus politics of the 80s and 90s has largely been a race
to the free-market-worshipping center-right, leaving a Democratic Party
that is not willing to stand for much of anything that Republicans can't
promote better.  Al Gore ran such an astoundingly timid and inoffensive
campaign that he gave up his substantial initial lead and actually lost
(minus a million or so votes) to Bush, leaving us where we are today.
Twelve years ago, Blanchard hardly bothered to campaign, providing a gift
of three Engler administrations to Michigan, and a state that is now much
more conservative as a result.

People need leaders who will lead.  We need more divisive politics, not
less.

Steve Gutterman

and it really hasn't done the Democratic Party much good done its best to
One can harln embracing the free market

--On Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:20 PM -0400 Dave Dempsey
<davedem@hotmail.com> wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Enviro-Mich message from "Dave Dempsey" <davedem@hotmail.com>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It's regrettable that several of the candidates for governor and some of
> their supporters have chosen to attack and divide rather than simply
> present their records and visions for renewing Michigan's leadership.
> There's a plausible case to be made that all five of the candidates
> running for Governor are a distinct improvement substantively over the
> wretched anti-environmental administration that has ruled Michigan for 12
> years.  But one defining difference might be a quality of leadership: who
> as governor will bring together people who genuinely care about
> protecting our state rather than continue the divisive tone of the last
> decade?  We've got enough work to do to clean up the mess of the 1990s
> without battling each other.
>
>
> >From: "Alex J. Sagady & Associates" <ajs@sagady.com>
> >Reply-To: "Alex J. Sagady & Associates" <ajs@sagady.com>
> >To: enviro-mich@great-lakes.net
> >Subject: E-M:/ Granholm Can't Take it
> >Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 12:06:46 -0400
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Enviro-Mich message from "Alex J. Sagady & Associates" <ajs@sagady.com>
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Granholm cancels news conference on environment issue
> >after Bonior supporters resolve to show up......Today's Macomb Daily...
> >
> >http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=4920338&BRD=988&PAG=461&dept_i
> d=141265&rfi=6 >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---- >Alex J. Sagady & Associates  http://my.voyager.net/~ajs/sagady.pdf >
> >Environmental Enforcement, Technical Review, Public Policy and
> >Communications on Air, Water and Waste/Community Environmental Protection
> >
> >PO Box 39,  East Lansing, MI  48826-0039
> >(517) 332-6971; (517) 332-8987 (fax); ajs@sagady.com
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---- >
> >
> >
> >
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Postings to:  enviro-mich@great-lakes.net      For info, send email to
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ENVIRO-MICH:  Internet List and Forum for Michigan Environmental
and Conservation Issues and Michigan-based Citizen Action.   Archives at
http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/enviro-mich/

Postings to:  enviro-mich@great-lakes.net      For info, send email to
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