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Re: The myth of ethanol: Re: E-M:/ Metro Times article on ethanol



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Enviro-Mich message from "William Tobler" <williamtobler@critterswoods.org>
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For the record, I have disagreed (privately) with JBull's response, and
have continued the discussion with WovenWoman (courteously and privately).

In my opinion, we are in desperate times and being a candy *ss is not appropriate.



----- Original Message ----- From: <JBull51264@aol.com>
To: <williamtobler@critterswoods.org>; <enviro-mich@great-lakes.net>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: The myth of ethanol: Re: E-M:/ Metro Times article on ethanol



------------------------------------------------------------------------- Enviro-Mich message from JBull51264@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------

With regard to williamtobler@critterswoods.org's last post:
Free-wheeling discussion is good, up to a point. The point where it crosses
the line into personal attacks and name-calling, I think it is inappropriate.
Not commenting on the substance of your post, I find the tone condesceding
and offensive. The sign-off you used only served to punctuate the nasty tone of
the rest of the message. Disagree, Disagree strongly but can't we keep this
discussion civil?
Jim



In a message dated 7/21/06 10:47:58 PM, williamtobler@critterswoods.org writes:

<< I'm sorry now that I didn't make my post simpler for you to understand.

Just how do you think any auto manufacturer is going to get more fuel
economy? Which magic are they gonna use this time? (If you don't know, hint=small,
which for the most part, doesn't sell). There is a little bit fuel economy
here and there with very expensive technologies.


Do you really think Toyota knows anything that the other companies don't
know. For years, Toyota was a good copy cat. Now they have the economic advantage
with their transplant into the US, since they have little pension and retiree
health care to pay for so they can underprice Detroit for now. Perhaps as
you buy Japanese products, maybe you will soon find the need to work for a
Japanese company. Think about that, Edie, while you bash American products.


Do you realize that Ford Escorts got 45 mpg+? I drove them for years. On
highway trips - 52mpg. Nothing innovative here. Small, simple basic. Too bad
that Ford chooses not to make them anymore. I think that is a big mistake.


Do you realize that total hybrid sales from all manufacturers combined is
just a tiny fraction of sales, even with huge subsidies. So the green impact
there is negligible.


Do you know when you consider the cradle to grave energy consumptions, that
hybrids don't really look that good? However, mild hybrids are pretty
attractive for urban drivers because of the braking regen. A net loss for expressway
drivers.


Do you know from a $ point of view, a consumer is unlikely to recover the
extra manufacturing cost of a hybrid even with $3 gasoline? Somewhere beyond 10
years. Don't you think that a consumer has to want to be green and put his
money where his mouth is? Dollars speak to most consumers.


Do you realize that the gap between EPA sticker fuel economy and real fuel
economy is the biggest for the Toyota Prius hybrid? A big lie? I wonder why
you don't hear about it?


Do you understand the pollution problems from battery manufacturing and
disposal resulting from hybrids?

Do you realize that some of the biggest "quality" problems and
things-gone-wrong were on the Toyota Prius? Quality? Safety? Lemon? I wonder why you
don't hear about it?


Do you know from a power train viewpoint, that the Prius and Escape Hybrid
are virtually the same design made by Aisin?

Do you know that Aisin has refused to supply Ford with increased volumes of
various patented components used in hybrids, at least at competitive prices?

Do you know that Aisin is a subsidiary of Toyota?

Do you realize that the sale of diesels in the US has been a repeated flop
over the past 20 years because the US public does not want them? And
economically, it is a bad choice for most consumers other than those evil, fuel
consuming men truckers?


Do you know that a significant percentage of the fuel economy "advantage" of
diesels comes from the fact that there is a larger carbon energy content in
diesel fuel?  Do you understand the relationship between carbon content and
global warming?

Do you understand the Euro diesels generally do not meet the US air quality
standards, and that the cars generally do not meet US crash standards?


The part that we seem to agree on is that the US public is addicted to large
heavy vehicles with lots of creature comforts, plenty of performance
acceleration, 4 wheel drive, all terrain tires to get to the supermarket, and extremely
poor aerodynamics resulting from truck and SUV configurations. On the other
hand, a part that we apparently disagree on is that women make up a sizable
percentage of the driving and commuting public, and I see more road rage from
women driving their SUVs on the freeway than from men. So let's not use the
sexist BS. Maybe, woman=consuming fuel with one hand on their makeup compact and
the other on their cell phone, and with no hands on driving?



My original point was that enviros need to educate the public to shape consumer demand that currently isn't there.

Try looking across the product lineup of all companies and you will see
falling fuel economy everywhere as they fill the US consumer demand for inefficient
vehicles.


Just like with the population discussion, the enviro community has failed
miserably in educating the consuming public.

The United States government (both parties) has failed miserably.

Companies are in the business to make money, not go out of business.


Namaste yourself.





----- Original Message -----


From: WovenWoman@aol.com

To: enviro-mich@great-lakes.net

Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 11:38 AM

Subject: Re: The myth of ethanol: Re: E-M:/ Metro Times article on ethanol



 In a message dated 7/20/2006 1:14:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williamtobler@critterswoods.org writes:

Now don't go out and blame Ford for the energy / fuel crisis.

Henry Ford himself might do just that. I think he's turning in his grave
over what his company has become. The recent ethanol campaign starring Mr.
Bill Ford has (some) people thinking "Wonderful! The gas crisis is almost over!"
CEO Bill Ford appears in the 30-second television commercials with a Ford
Escape hybrid sport utility vehicle and passionately (and compassionately) states
that “Ford Motor Company has a dozen models that get at least 30 miles to the
gallon. While we can't control the price of fuel, we're innovating to reduce
need.” In the background is a car with an open fuel cap with stalks of corn
poking out.



All of my daughters friends think this is just terrific and so do most of
their parents. In the 70s my Datsun got at least 45 mpg and my friends Datsun
1200 got over 30 mpg. They obviously were not hybrids. I cant see the
innovation Bill speaks of. (regarding consumption of fuel)



When consumers had two choices of fabric to make dresses, they made the
choice between the two. If American auto manufacturers made decisions to be more
earth friendly people would purchase the vehicles, just as they do elsewhere
in the world. Smart cars, Japanese Kei-cars, Euro diesels.....



Powerful advertising campaigns can change the world. Are Americans that
gullible? By the sheer # of SUV's out there, it would appear so.
Mar 愀 瀀甀爀挀栀愀猀攀⸀   䤀昀 椀琀 猀甀搀搀攀渀氀礀 戀攀挀愀洀攀 琀栀攀 爀愀最攀 琀漀 戀攀 䜀刀䔀䔀一Ⰰ 琀
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欀⤀  䄀 最漀漀搀 攀砀愀洀瀀氀攀 椀猀 愀 爀攀挀攀渀琀 挀漀洀洀攀爀挀椀愀氀 琀栀愀琀 猀栀漀眀猀
 愀 洀愀渀 purchasing tofu while the guy behind him has the counter stacked
high with meat meat and more meat. The tofu guy rushes out of the store and
goes directly to the HUMMER dealer where he "reclaims his manhood" through his
purchase of a gas guzzler. Being a man=consuming fuel.



I don't see any commercials showing a man pulling back a curtain to reveal
evil/greedy oil tycoons exploiting humans/animals/plants/water
sources/landscapes/lifestyles and then showing the same fella rushing out to purchase a Sm
art car to "reclaim his humanity". Being a man=being mindful.



Soon Madagascar will be destroyed and the unique life that is there will be
sacrificed for a few more commutes to work. I don't see that on TV either.



How can people ask for/desire alternatives when they are not informed.


Namaste,

Edie >>


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