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Re: E-M:/ alternative energy industry



(Reposted because the orginal exceeded the forum size limitation)
 
 
 
I don't have a watt meter to verify the numbers, but the nameplate indicates that the running watts for the fridge is 750W "full load" and for the freezer 630W.  I DO know that when DTE is "off-of-the-grid" (a frequent event around here) and I'm running on a 5KW generator, that the load of the fridge and freezer on the generator is noticeable - not a lot, but noticeable. A 100W lightbulb is not noticeable.  Of course, much more for startup - I'm not talking about that.  You start these up one at a time with just a 5KW generator.
 
Also, by design, energy star appliances run most of the time - my estimate is better than 70% (based on my ears).  My previous Maytag ran more frequently than my current Kenmore.  (I will never purchase another Maytag appliance - they refused to honor the service contract 6 months into a 3 year contract; no wonder why the Maytag repairman is lonely.  I had two Maytags back to back and they each only lasted 3 years).
 
As a "check" on this, refer to any one of the generator sizing charts
 
These sites show numbers in the ball park of mine, with starting wattages 2 or 3 times these numbers.  The starting wattage part really isn't relevant if you are tied to the grid or have battery backup with a large enough inverter.
 
So the total running load is 1380W.   Adjusting for the 70% brings it down to about 1KW.
 
I based my statement on the PV system running at rated capacity for 8 hours per day (much more optimistic than your number).  To run a 1KW load for 24 hours per day, you need 3KW at 8 hours per day assuming no conversion losses (not a good assumption).  That provides just 100% of the capacity for these two appliances.
 
If I used your 4.3 hours for Detroit, then there is a shortfall of nearly 50%.
 
My 1KW average gives me 24KW-hours per day, or 8760 KW-hours per year.  Half this (for one average appliance) is 4380KW-hours per year. 
This is around 5 times the number you used from the government table.
 
Alright, there is a pretty big gap.  But I am pretty comfortable with my numbers based upon nameplate, personal observation, and generator sizing charts (3 independent sources).  And for the converse, I don't believe a refrigerator runs on 90W.  (your 800 KW / (365 *24) = 91.32W)
When I flip on a 100W light bulb, the generator does not react to this.  With the refrigerator, there is first the starting blip, and then a decided load.  Conversely, when you switch the bulb off, nothing.  When you switch the refrigerator off, the generator reacts.
 
I have an old Maytag compressor (actually not that old since it only lasted 3 years) with a manufacturer's fact sheet (Embraco 12001834) that indicates the compressor alone consumes 311W.  Then you have a number of fans and frost free heaters, and automatic defrost (twice a day).  The freezer is not frost free, so presumably it runs more efficiently so long as one is conscientious about manually defrosting it.
 
The only way I could be more factual is if I owned a watt meter.  Someday I will get one.
 
Using my numbers and a couple of different internet sources for DIY solar panels, just buying the solar panels (4KW worth) as components would cost $20,000  ($1000 per 200W panel at 18V), and then you have to buy the batteries, controls, an inverter and some pretty heavy ga copper wiring.  And this is a DIY cost; if you have to hire a licensed electrician - then heaven forbid.
 
This website shows the payback is well in excess of 40 years for Detroit, and this assumes no maintenance or replacement parts (batteries).  I haven't heard much about 40 year batteries before.
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: E-M:/ alternative energy industry

Bill,
 
    I am quite surprised by the claims in your last paragraph -- you seem to be saying that a 3 kW PV system in SE Michigan is insufficient to power an energy star refrigerator and an energy star freezer. 
 
 
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