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RE: [SPAM]RE: E-M:/ NEWS RELEASE: MUCC launches online petition to expand Bottle Bill, schedules le




Exactly, Chuck.  You scooped me on the "effectively dead" point, but I'll restate it my way shortly anyhow. --  Jim

From: charles.cubbage@comcast.net
To: lang.sc.oak@hotmail.com; craig.harris@ssc.msu.edu; ajs@sagady.com; enviro-mich@great-lakes.net
Subject: Re: [SPAM]RE: E-M:/ NEWS RELEASE: MUCC launches online petition to expand Bottle Bill, schedules legislative
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:37:01 -0400

Politics and social issue resolution efforts among the variety of players, across time, make for interesting bedfellows.  Craig's points are well taken.  At the same time, the motives for MUCC support needs to be carefully examined.  Support for an issue that is effectively dead is no support, but empty positioning for the sake of image.
Regards,
Chuck 
----- Original Message -----
From: James Lang
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:02 PM
Subject: [SPAM]RE: E-M:/ NEWS RELEASE: MUCC launches online petition to expand Bottle Bill, schedules legislative


Craig:  Yours was a thoughtful response.  More later.  --  Jim Lang

Subject: RE: E-M:/ NEWS RELEASE: MUCC launches online petition to expand Bottle Bill, schedules legislative
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:23:36 -0400
From: Craig.Harris@ssc.msu.edu
To: lang.sc.oak@hotmail.com; ajs@sagady.com; enviro-mich@great-lakes.net

I would hope that there might be a relatively robust discussion on enviromich of alex’s suggestion . . .

 

I don’t think the situation is as clear as alex and james seem to feel it is . . . indeed, I think that strong arguments can be made on both sides of the question . . .

 

all movement organizations have to deal with questions concerning what temporary coalitions are supportable and which one’s not . . .

 

to my mind, the question seems to turn, at least in part, on the extent to which different interests are benefited by the temporary coalition . . .

 

I think people would agree that the health of the environment is benefited by a deposit on water bottles . . .

I understand the argument that the environmental benefit is not as great if large water bottles are not included, but I also wonder if the discarding of large water bottles is much of a problem . . .

 

I think the reputation of various environmental organizations would be enhanced by association with the expanded bottle bill, and I don’t think their reputation would be significantly diminished by temporary coalition with mucc . . .

 

I think that the reputation of mucc will be enhanced by association with the expanded bottle bill, and my sense is that some environmental persons would like to diminish the benefit that mucc can gain from the expanded bottle bill effort . . .

I understand the tactical argument that it is more important to keep the spotlight on the negative impacts of mucc/muchmore on the public trust including water, than to obtain the benefit of passage of a partially expanded bottle bill . . .

 

three questions occur to me . . .

 

is it not possible to form a temporary coalition with mucc for the partially expanded bottle bill and at the same time keep the negative spotlight on the mucc/muchmore/tahylor impacts on the public trust doctrine . . .

 

if many environmentalists and environmental organizations boycott the mucc initiated expanded bottle bill effort, will that significantly diminish the benefit that mucc gets from its association with the effort . . .

 

if many environmentalists and environmental organizations boycott the mucc initiated expanded bottle bill effort, is that likely to lead mucc to suspend the effort . . .

 

if the answer to the first question is yes, and the answers to the second two questions are no, then it seems to me that the costs of a boycott outweigh the benefits . . .

 

cheers,

 

craig

 

craig k harris

department of sociology

michigan state university

east lansing  michigan  48824-1111

usa

 

 


From: owner-enviro-mich@great-lakes.net [mailto:owner-enviro-mich@great-lakes.net] On Behalf Of James Lang
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:24 AM
To: Alexander J. Sagady; enviro-mich@great-lakes.net
Subject: RE: E-M:/ NEWS RELEASE: MUCC launches online petition to expand Bottle Bill, schedules legislative

 

You've got my vote, Alex!  The Michigan Constitution and our environment are being subverted. -- J. Lang

> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:05:08 -0400
> To: enviro-mich@great-lakes.net
> From: ajs@sagady.com
> Subject: Re: E-M:/ NEWS RELEASE: MUCC launches online petition to expand Bottle Bill, schedules legislative day for Thursday in Lansing
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Enviro-Mich message from "Alexander J. Sagady" <ajs@sagady.com>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'd suggest that all Michigan citizens environmentalists BOYCOTT
> ALL MUCC CAMPAIGNS of this nature until this organization
> comes to its senses on the public trust groundwater issue.
>
> In 1963, the people of the state of Michigan enacted the following
> provision (Article IV, Section 52) in the revised state constitution:
>
> "Natural resources; conservation, pollution, impairment, destruction.
> Sec. 52. The conservation and development of the natural resources of the state are hereby
> declared to be of paramount public concern in the interest of the health, safety and general
> welfare of the people. The legislature shall provide for the protection of the air, water and
> other natural resources of the state from pollution, impairment and destruction."
>
> This is where the public trust doctrine in the state's management of
> groundwater comes from. MUCC is presently trying to remove Michigan
> groundwater from this protection by allowing a public trust resource to
> essentially be privatized. Why do MUCC and Michigan Farm Bureau
> hate the Michigan Constitution protections of natural resources?
>
> Why is MUCC's Executive Director supporting a Michigan judge who
> illegitimately trashed the Michigan Environmental Protection Act?
>
> MUCC wants to placate groundwater privatizers, federalist
> society judges (complete with Dennis Muchmore's fundraising pandering to
> Michigan Supreme Court Judge Cliff Taylor) and turn Michigan
> groundwater resources over to a privatized elite.
>
> If MUCC wants grassroots troops to help with its campaigns,
> let them recruit them from their buddies at the Farm Bureau,
> Michigan State Chamber of Commerce, Sportsmen for Bush,
> Public Sector Consultants and Nestle and Ice Mountain.
>
> Michigan citizens must ensure that Great Lakes watershed waters
> are not for sale as the commodities that MUCC and Nestle
> want them to be.
>
> Alex Sagady
>
>
> At 11:16 AM 06/23/2008, you wrote:
> >For Immediate Release
> >
> >Contact: Dennis Muchmore, MUCC Executive Director (517) 346-6455
> >
> > Donna Stine, MUCC Deputy Director for Policy (517) 346-6487
> >
> > Dave Nyberg, MUCC Resource Policy Specialist (517) 346-6462
> >
> >MUCC LAUNCHES ONLINE PETITION TO EXPAND BOTTLE BILL
> >
> >Signatures to be presented at grassroots push in Lansing on Thursday
> >
> >LANSING—The Michigan United Conservation Clubs (MUCC) today announced an online petition to expand the state's 32-year-old Bottle Bill to include water and other non-carbonated beverage containers. The effort was started to allow all of Michigan citizen's the opportunity to inform the legislature of the broad public support for the measure. The petition will also supplement a grassroots legislative day slated for Thursday, June 26 in Lansing.
> >
> > "MUCC and Michigan residents need to step up to the plate as one united voice on this issue," said MUCC Executive Director Dennis Muchmore.
> >
> > According to MUCC poll data, 76 percent of Michigan voters support expanding the state's famous bottle law – outside data shows this support above 80 percent. However, Muchmore said that the legislature must hear Michigan's demand for this measure beyond poll data with an old-fashioned grassroots push.
> >
> > "Last week we got the legislature's attention but now it's time to act," Muchmore said. "MUCC is calling on the 80 percent majority of Michigan voters who support improving Michigan's Bottle Bill to take a small step in making their voice heard, whether its signing this petition, attending our legislative day, or contacting their state legislators."
> >
> > Michigan residents may visit <http://www.mucc.org/policy/bottlebillexpansion.php>http://www.mucc.org/policy/bottlebillexpansion.php to sign the petition and access other valuable information on the Bottle Bill expansion, including a sample letter to the editor, background facts, and more information on the legislative day on June 26. Facebook and MySpace users are also encouraged to join MUCC's "Support a Bigger, Better Bottle Bill for Michigan!" groups that will provide real-time updates on the initiative's progress.
> >
> >###
> >
> >Media Note: For Background Information and more details, go to <http://www.mucc.org/>www.mucc.org.
> >
> >--
> >David Nyberg
> >Resource Policy Specialist
> >Michigan United Conservation Clubs
> >2101 Wood Street
> >Lansing, MI 48912
> >517-346-6462
> ><http://www.mucc.org>www.mucc.org
> >
> >MUCC has been Michigan's first voice for Michigan's out-of-doors since 1937. MUCC clubs and members strive to Unite Citizens to Conserve, Protect, and Enhance Michigan's Natural Resources and Outdoor Heritage.
> >
>
> ==========================================
> Alex J. Sagady & Associates http://www.sagady.com
>
> Environmental Enforcement, Permit/Technical Review, Public Policy,
> Expert Witness Review and Litigation Investigation on Air, Water and
> Waste/Community Environmental and Resource Protection
> Prospectus at: http://www.sagady.com/sagady.pdf
>
> 657 Spartan Avenue, East Lansing, MI 48823
> (517) 332-6971; ajs@sagady.com
> ==========================================
>
>
> =====================
> ENVIRO-MICH: Internet List and Forum for Michigan Environmental
> and Conservation Issues and Michigan-based Citizen Action. Archives at
> http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/enviro-mich/
>
> Postings to: enviro-mich@great-lakes.net For info, send email to
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