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RE: INFOTERRA: Re: Burton Hamner's Big Lie Was Big Media Duped byThe Skeptical Environmentalist



 
>I think I will keep posting my little email again, Mr. Entine 

Hi Burt:

FYI - I did not see the email you have replied to so I assume Mr. Entine
has been blocked on P2Tech. 

I think it must be very hard to wait for a formal apology but I don't
want to see more people blocked from participating in discussions on P2
and Environmental progress.  Worse - I would hate to see people remove
themselves from this list because of so much spam.

So, I for one would prefer you do not keep re-sending your email.

P2Tech archives can be found at http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/p2tech/
;-)

Hope to see you at the spring roundtable up in your neck of the woods!


Take Care,

- Greg


Greg Geyer
Terrachord
400 Grange Hall Road
Dalton, MA  01226
(413) 684-2403  (413) 684-3449 (fax)
AIM: grgeyer



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-p2tech@great-lakes.net 
> [mailto:owner-p2tech@great-lakes.net] On Behalf Of Burton Hamner
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 12:57 PM
> To: Jon Entine; ashok sharma; ONE-L@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU; 
> p2tech@great-lakes.net; infoterra@cedar.at; apcpnet@tei.or.th
> Cc: IABS-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: INFOTERRA: Re: Burton Hamner's Big Lie Was Big 
> Media Duped byThe Skeptical Environmentalist
> 
> 
> Since Mr Entine continues to call me names for my little 
> email posting, I think it is worthwhile to post it again!  
> Read it, and then what Mr Entine says about it.
> 
> I wrote of the Lundborg controversy (NOT the book itself):
> 
> "This story is excellent for revealing how easy it is to lie 
> with statistics and how the media are so easily manipulated 
> by its lack of expertise in covering environmental issues.  
> Should be a classic in enviro education and in media management."
> 
> That is ALL I wrote.  I have not read the book and was simply 
> forwarding an interesting email from someone else.  Read 
> again, does it say WHO lies with statistics?
> 
> According to Entine, I "very simplistically (and to me 
> offensively) attacked the strawman... a purported leftist 
> attack, it smacked off the tactics of the right...  Mr. 
> Hamner's intemperate broadside..  poorly thought and out 
> expressed verbiage disguised as "critical" thinking, which 
> just perpetuates simplistic and highly divisive thinking... 
> he, as well as so many others, are so easily seduced by the 
> 'rhetoric of the kvetch'... "  There's more, read below!
> 
> Draw your own conclusions regarding Mr Entine's opinions.  I 
> think I will keep posting my little email again, Mr. Entine 
> is becoming pretty funny as the foam drips from his lips.  
> His pejorative adjectives are like Pokemon: I Gotta Catch Em 
> All!  "Rhetoric of the kvetch"??  I love it.
> 
> Burt Hamner
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon Entine" <runjonrun@earthlink.net>
> To: "ashok sharma" <ashokaks@hotmail.com>; 
> <bhamner@cleanerproduction.com>; <ONE-L@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU>; 
> <p2tech@great-lakes.net>; <infoterra@cedar.at>; <apcpnet@tei.or.th>
> Cc: <IABS-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: INFOTERRA: Re: Burton Hamner's Big Lie Was Big 
> Media Duped byThe Skeptical Environmentalist
> 
> 
> > One problem with your "analysis" Ashok--Although this may 
> not be the 
> > case
> in
> > this instance, it is a common among ideologues to not 
> understand and 
> > therefore to confuse the difference between passion and fairness.
> >
> > My objection to Burton Hamner's posting was its smug 
> ideological tone,
> which
> > assumed (in this case without even reading the book or many of its
> critics),
> > which side was with the angels. Moreover, it very 
> simplistically (and 
> > to
> me
> > offensively) attacked the strawman, the "mainstream media". 
> Although 
> > it
> was
> > a purported leftist attack, it smacked off the tactics of the right.
> >
> > What pray tell was my "lack of decency" in the context of 
> Mr. Hamner's 
> > intemperate broadside? My passion was directed at poorly 
> thought and 
> > out expressed verbiage disguised as "critical" thinking, which just
> perpetuates
> > simplistic and highly divisive thinking.
> >
> > This TomPaine posting is hardly a classic case of "media 
> manipulation" 
> > as Mr. Hamner suggests, unless he turns it on his head and 
> > acknowledges that he, as well as so many others, are so 
> easily seduced 
> > by the 'rhetoric of
> the
> > kvetch'. Very highly contested issue--especially major 
> environmental 
> > showdowns--show the Yin and Yang of the far left and far right in 
> > action.
> >
> > To suggest that my passionate appeal to look for nuance in 
> such cases 
> > is some how "indecent" is just plain bizarre. Are opinions 
> only decent 
> > if
> they
> > are said sotto voce? Or is intellectual coherence a part of the 
> > equation too?
> >
> > On 12/15/01 6:32 AM, "ashok sharma" <ashokaks@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > I strongly feel that Burt is righ in expecting an 
> apology. Anyone is 
> > > entirely entitled to one's views in as much as Mr. Entine 
> in boiling
> over
> > > such views. I think, decency must lie at the core of all 
> > > intellectual interaction. Differences of opinion are ofcourse 
> > > enritching. Cheers.
> > >
> > > Ashok Sharma
> > > Cleantech foundation
> > > <cleantechfoundation@vsnl.net>
> > >
> > > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: "Burton Hamner" <bhamner@cleanerproduction.com>
> > >> Reply-To: "Burton Hamner" <bhamner@cleanerproduction.com>
> > >> To: "Jon Entine" <runjonrun@earthlink.net>, "ONE-L"
> > >> <ONE-L@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU>,        "p2tech" 
> <p2tech@great-lakes.net>,
> > >> "Infoterra" <infoterra@cedar.at>,        "AP CP List"
> <apcpnet@tei.or.th>
> > >> CC: <IABS-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
> > >> Subject: INFOTERRA: Re: Burton Hamner's Big Lie Was Big 
> Media Duped 
> > >> by
> The
> > >> SkepticalEnvironmentalist
> > >> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:34:50 -0800
> > >>
> > >> Excuse me for not being clear, Mr Entine.  I think the 
> whole case 
> > >> is an excellent example for discussion and teaching.  
> Your response 
> > >> in this subject line is offensive, I do not appreciate having my 
> > >> name
> associated
> > >> with "Big Lie" and I expect an apology.
> > >>
> > >> Burton Hamner
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Jon Entine" <runjonrun@earthlink.net>
> > >> To: "Burton Hamner" <bhamner@cleanerproduction.com>; "ONE-L" 
> > >> <ONE-L@CLVM.CLARKSON.EDU>; "p2tech" <p2tech@great-lakes.net>;
> "Infoterra"
> > >> <infoterra@cedar.at>; "AP CP List" <apcpnet@tei.or.th>
> > >> Cc: <IABS-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:42 AM
> > >> Subject: Burton Hamner's Big Lie Was Big Media Duped by The 
> > >> SkepticalEnvironmentalist
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Burton:
> > >>>
> > >>> "Excellent"??
> > >>>
> > >>> You can't be serious!
> > >>>
> > >>> Have you actually READ the book, Woodward's tendentious 
> article, 
> > >>> and
> the
> > >>> various polemical "analyses" by selected "reviewers".
> > >>>
> > >>> Woodward's article provides no analysis at all...it 
> amounts to an 
> > >>> ad
> > >> hominem
> > >>> (poorly constructed) by the way attack on Lomborg. It's gutter
> > >> journalism
> > >> at
> > >>> its worst. To site this as an example of "great journalism" is a
> little
> > >>> frightening. No respectable magazine or newspaper would 
> print much 
> > >>> of
> > >> the
> > >>> garbage found on Tom Paine about this issue ... It's mostly
> ideological
> > >>> rubbish.
> > >>>
> > >>> As a progressive on environmental issues, I find this 
> offensive. 
> > >>> And
> I'm
> > >>> amazed that any serious academician would fall for this. Sadly, 
> > >>> it's illustrative of why the some aspects of the environmental 
> > >>> movement
> have
> > >> lost
> > >>> so much credibility. What happened to critical thinking--of the 
> > >>> "left"
> > >> and
> > >>> the loony extremist right?
> > >>>
> > >>> As for the reviewers comments...READ them and match them up 
> > >>> against
> the
> > >>> book. In almost every case, they are taking very narrow 
> elements 
> > >>> of
> the
> > >> book
> > >>> and contesting some aspects of the data, but not mustering any 
> > >>> real
> > >> analysis
> > >>> of the overall conclusions.
> > >>>
> > >>> As you know, this is highly contested terrain. There will be
> > >> disagreements.
> > >>> But selectively contesting some of the statistical 
> analysis does 
> > >>> not automatically invalidate major theses in the book. In this 
> > >>> case, not
> ONE
> > >> of
> > >>> the "reviewers" lay much of a glove on Lomborg's 
> overall analysis.
> > >>>
> > >>> Again...if you disagree..cite some actual examples, rather than 
> > >>> the collection of mostly ad hominem attacks by well known 
> > >>> ideologues who
> > >> have
> > >> a
> > >>> lot to lose by a more critical look at highly 
> contentious issues.
> > >>>
> > >>> For example, people like Lester Brown. David Nemtzow, and Devra 
> > >>> Davis,
> > >> among
> > >>> others, are not very credible independent thinks on the 
> issues in
> which
> > >> they
> > >>> polemicize about. PLEASE..read what they write. It's selective
> > >> journalism,
> > >>> which makes Lomborg's book all the more impressive. 
> Many of those 
> > >>> who
> > >> write
> > >>> are activists who have a long history of distorting (or as is 
> > >>> usually
> > >> the
> > >>> case, not understanding) complex environmental and 
> social issues. 
> > >>> For
> > >> the
> > >>> most part, they are tin horn demagogues.
> > >>>
> > >>> Does Lomborg reach some questionable 
> conclusions...perhaps, but he 
> > >>> is
> > >> very
> > >>> transparent about his research -- which means he 
> acknowledges that
> > >> analyzing
> > >>> these issues is a process. The same cannot be said for the 
> > >>> analysis of
> > >> some
> > >>> of those cited in the Tom Paine articles.
> > >>>
> > >>> Exercise critical thinking about this, don't just embrace the
> > >> ideological
> > >>> rhetoric of the left and the right.
> > >>>
> > >>> In the few cases in which the critics are credible, such as EO 
> > >>> Wilson
> on
> > >>> species extinction, not of the comments undermine Lomborg's 
> > >>> analysis.
> > >> Read
> > >>> it in context.
> > >>>
> > >>> Even Woodward acknowledges, grudgingly, that dealing with 
> > >>> statistics
> in
> > >>> hotly polemical issues is very contentious--note his 
> reference to 
> > >>> Greenpeace's long history of media manipulation and issuing 
> > >>> distorted
> > >> (and
> > >>> very unprogressive) environmental "studies" to justify breaking 
> > >>> the
> law.
> > >>>
> > >>> [By the way, if any one is interested, my 11,000 word 
> case study 
> > >>> of
> the
> > >>> Brent Spar/Greenpeace/Shell fiasco, which deconstructs 
> the media 
> > >>> manipulation by both sides in this affair, is now available as a
> chapter
> > >> in
> > >>> the Routledge published book: Case Histories in 
> Business Ethics, 
> > >>> which
> > >> is
> > >>> being published this month in both hardback and 
> paperback. You can
> find
> > >>> details at Amazon.com...the UK site is:
> > >>>
> > >>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415231442/ref%3Ded%5
> Fra%5Fof%5Fdp/
> > >>> 202-1071582-5686251 ]
> > >>>
> > >>> Jon Entine
> > >>>
> > >>> On 12/13/01 9:14 AM, "Burton Hamner" 
> > >>> <bhamner@cleanerproduction.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> This story is excellent for revealing how easy it is 
> to lie with
> > >> statistics
> > >>>> and how the media are so easily manipulated by its lack of 
> > >>>> expertise
> > >> in
> > >>>> covering environmental issues.  Should be a classic in enviro
> > >> education
> > >> and
> > >>>> in media management.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Burton
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Colin Woodard's article, "THE TABLOID ENVIRONMENTALIST, How a 
> > >>>>> Pseudo-Scientist Duped the Big Media -- Big Time" is now 
> > >>>>> available
> at
> > >>>>> http://www.tompaine.com. An op-ad about this was published in
> today's
> > >>>>> New York Times.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It features how The New York Times, Time Magazine, The 
> > >>>>> Economist,
> > >> etc.
> > >>>>> were suckered into printing uncritical and glowing reviews of 
> > >>>>> Bjorn Lomborg's book, The Skeptical Environmentalist.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Grist Magazine also published a series ("Something is 
> Rotten in 
> > >>>>> the State of Denmark") refuting Lomborg's assertions, 
> > >>>>> http://www.gristmagazine.com. Two of the nine articles were 
> > >>>>> written by WRI experts, Dr. Allen Hammond and Emily Matthews.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If you want to know more about the controversy, see our media 
> > >>>>> guide
> > >> at
> > >>>>> http://www.wri.org/press/mk_lomborg.html.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> *****************************************************
> > >>>>> Adlai J. Amor
> > >>>>> Media Director
> > >>>>>  World Resources Institute
> > >>>>> 10 G Street, NE, Washington, DC 20002, USA
> > >>>>> Tel: (+202) 729 7736 * Fax: (+202) 729 7616
> > >>>>> Email: aamor@wri.org
> > >>>>> Website: http://www.wri.org
> > >>>>> *****************************************************
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Jon Entine
> > >>> RuffRun
> > >>> 6178 Grey Rock Rd.
> > >>> Agoura Hills, CA 91301
> > >>> (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804
> > >>> http://www.jonentine.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> ----
> > >> This message was sent by INFOTERRA@CEDAR.AT
> > >> To signoff from the list, send an email to 
> majordomo@cedar.at the 
> > >> message body should read "unsubscribe infoterra" 
> (without quotes). 
> > >> Visit http://www.cedar.at/unep/infoterra/index.html
> > >> for more info, list commands, and mail archives (searchable).
> > >> ----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ASHOK SHARMA, SECRETARY,
> > > HIMACHAL PRODUCTIVITY COUNCIL,
> > > UDYOG BHAWAN, SHIMLA 171001,INDIA.
> > > Ph: 91223973 ; FX: 91 177 225530
> > > email:ashokaks@hotmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
> > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Jon Entine
> > RuffRun
> > 6178 Grey Rock Rd.
> > Agoura Hills, CA 91301
> > (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804
> > http://www.jonentine.com
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
>