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reductions in water use for toilets




Hope you got the number you needed, Mr. Sutherland.  My comments are for
the drift in the discussion to graywater systems and toilet water use...

My days of arctic living provide yet another perspective. If the cost is
high enough, the rate of water use goes down.  fthe solution isn't always
better inventions, sometimes an operator solution will work as well as a
device.  In the mid-late 80's when our  water was ~ $0.13/gallon, we had a
saying, "if it's yellow, let it mellow, if it's brown, flush it down".
Sounds bad, but at least that was a step up from the honey buckets and
chopping ice for cooking and cleaning - which was motivation for real
conservation!

Inventors haven't been lax.  even down in fairbanks, we had neighbors who
used composting toilets.  but if not used correctly, they'd start a fire.
I never heard of that problem (surprisingly) with the incinolet, the
world's only electric incinerating toilet.  It's what they used up in the
camps of Prudhoe Bay, folks. Trust me, you've not lived until you've
experienced the aroma of human waste reduced to "clean, non-polluting ash"
http://www.incinolet.com/illustration_2.gif
I was just out in colorado, visiting a friend who told me of someone he
knew who had recently installed one.
http://www.incinolet.com/

composting toilet resources form a quick Google search:
http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/CompostToilet.html
http://www.cityfarmer.org/comptoilet64.html

One of the problems with gray-water systems is similar to an airtight home.
In the airtight home, you save energy costs, but indoor air quality (IAQ)
becomes an issue.  With gray water, molds, growths, and all kinds of neat
slime can also become an issue....  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just
that a simple replumb of the sytem is insufficient.

regards,

ry



********************************
Richard Yoder, PE
Director, P2ric.org
1313 Farnam St.   Ste. 230
Omaha, NE  68182

402-595-2381
fax: 402-595-2385
ryoder@unomaha.edu
http://www.p2ric.org
http://nbdc.unomaha.edu



                                                                                                                        
                    jsenn@thesigmagrou                                                                                  
                    p.com                    To:     "MacCormac, Deborah" <Deborah.MacCormac@dep.state.fl.us>           
                    Sent by:                 cc:     donaldsutherland-iso14000@worldnet.att.net,                        
                    owner-p2tech@great        owner-p2tech@great-lakes.net, p2tech@great-lakes.net, PioLom@aol.com,     
                    -lakes.net                rminicucci@des.state.nh.us                                                
                                             Subject:     RE: Potable Drinking Water & Wastewater - Re the 27%          
                                              household water use in toilets.                                           
                    03/15/02 10:23 AM                                                                                   
                    Please respond to                                                                                   
                    jsenn                                                                                               
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                        





Low flush toilets are a wonderful start but we need to make sure that the
infrastructure is in place to accommodate low flow systems.  Unfortunately,
not all communities were designed with this in mind.  For instance, state
and local plumbing codes specify required pitches for lateral sanitary
lines coming from residential properties.  Minimum pitches are determined
in part on solids loading and flow.  Not everyone had the foresight to
increase the pitch to decrease plugging problems.  I do not work for a
drain cleaning company, but I do belong to one of their email listservers.
These companies are making big money on cleaning laterals clogged with
sanitary wastes.  They see the increased use of low flow toilets as part of
the reason.  The existing sewer laterals do not have adequate pitch to
transport the 'stuff' to the street main when low flow toilets are used.
It will take people like yourself to work with people writing building code
to end up with a win-win situation.

JMHO.

Jeff Senn
Staff Engineer
Sigma Environmental Services, Inc.
(414) 768-7144




                    "MacCormac, Deborah"
                    <Deborah.MacCormac@dep.st       To:
<PioLom@aol.com>,
                    ate.fl.us>
<rminicucci@des.state.nh.us>,
                    Sent by:
<donaldsutherland-iso14000@worldnet.att.net>,
                    owner-p2tech@great-lakes.
<p2tech@great-lakes.net>
                    net                             cc:
                                                    Subject:     RE:
Potable Drinking Water &
                                                     Wastewater - Re the
27% household water use in
                    03/15/2002 09:27 AM              toilets.
                    Please respond to
                    "MacCormac, Deborah"






27%  grrr- the modern toilet!! Just think what an efficient, economical,
completely retrofittable and environmentally benign replacement for this
100
year old technology could do for the fresh water
supply of the entire planet!!! I have two top quality, low flush toilets
and
regretfully, we have a long way to go yet!! Inventors of the world, where
are
you!!!
Deborah MacCormac
FDEP - P2 - Orlando

     -----Original Message-----
     From: PioLom@aol.com [mailto:PioLom@aol.com]
     Sent: Thu 14-Mar-02 5:34 PM
     To: rminicucci@des.state.nh.us;
donaldsutherland-iso14000@worldnet.att.net; p2tech@great-lakes.net
     Cc:
     Subject: Re: Potable Drinking Water & Wastewater





     It is suggested that you review

     Handbook of Water Use and Conservation" (WaterPlow Press, 2001,
     www.waterplowpress.com) which includes a chapter that discusses
residential
     water use in further detail (Chapter 2, "Residential and Domestic
Water Use
     and Efficiency Measures").

     Also go to for some very detailed data go to
     http://www.waterwiser.org/frameset2.cfm?b=4

     which will provide recent extensive AWWA data stating toilet water
use at
     18.5 gpcd or 26.7% of total indoor use

     Regards,

     Pio Lombardo, P.E.

     Lombardo Associates, Inc.
     Environmental Engineers/Consultants
     49 Edge Hill Road
     Newton, MA  02467

     tel: 617-964-2924
     fax: 617-332-5477
     Portable phone:  617-529-6399
     email:  Pio@LombardoAssociates.com

     Web Site: http://www.LombardoAssociates.com