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Re: Fw: P2 in Paint Manufacturing



      It is too bad that Bob hasn't had the opportunity to learn about what
we are doing with the technology diffusion initiative.  Otherwise, he would
know that it is not a "hammers looking for nails" approach to addressing
problems.  In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.  Our model
begins with the problem, studies the process that creates the problem, then
considers solutions that address the problem at the root cause level.  Many
solutions are incremental in nature while some may involve investigating
new technology to modernize the operations.  In either case, the solutions
are developed to address problems at the root cause level.
      The real key to the Tech diffusion initiative is that we offer
assistance with the actual implementation of the recommendations.  Where
new technologies are involved, we help participants test the technologies
on site at a pilot scale prior to implementation.  This approach allows
them to address uncertainty issues associated with performance prior to
investing capital.  We have acquired data that shows that our approach is
about 70% effective in cases where we recommend new technologies.  We
specifically target the leaders in a specific sector to conduct these
activities with.  We do this for 2 reasons:  1) if the leaders in a sector
haven't implemented best practices yet - what chance do you have with the
laggards, and 2) once the leaders have implemented best practices, the rest
of the sector will soon have to follow to remain competitive.
      We (and many others) are convinced that our methods are considerably
more effective than alternative approaches where "experts" develop long
laundry lists of recommendations then leave the client with no
implementation assistance.  These methods have been proven to be mostly
ineffective.  You can use your "screws, staples, tape, and glue" if you
want to.  We will stick with principles developed in science and engineering.


At 03:17 PM 1/28/04 -0500, Robert B. Pojasek wrote:
 >I was literally counting to one thousand on Gary's note when I read your
 >note, Scott.  I have a lot of experience with paint manufacturing and I have
 >rarely asked them to spend capital dollars to save lots of money by
 >improving their processes to conserve resource use and dramatically reduce
 >wastes, such as VOC emissions.  Reducing electricity use in the dispersion
 >step is just HUGE.  It might have something to do that Gary's organization
 >is funded for TECHNOLOGY diffusion.  There is a saying that "when you are a
 >hammer, everything looks like a nail."  I guess that Scott's caution is that
 >there are screws, staples, tape, glue, and a host of other items besides the
 >nails and hammers.  Gary might benefit by having the organizations use some
 >of these non-capital means to save the money that they can later invest in
 >capital equipment.  I hope the funding for the TECHNOLOGY diffusion is for
 >many years so you can progress in this way.  After more than 20 years in
 >pollution prevention, I feel uncomfortable thinking that we must limit our
 >work to P2 Technologies.  If this were true, I am out of business right now.
 >
 >Bob Pojasek
 >
 >----- Original Message -----
 >From: "Butner, R Scott" <scott.butner@pnl.gov>
 >To: <p2tech@great-lakes.net>
 >Cc: "Gary Miller" <gmiller@wmrc.uiuc.edu>
 >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 2:49 PM
 >Subject: RE: P2 in Paint Manufacturing
 >
 >
 >On an earlier episode of "P2TECH: Waste Scene Investigation," our good
 >friend from the Midwest, Gary Miller (gmiller@wmrc.uiuc.edu) asked, in
 >part:
 >
 > > I've been looking in several places, with very little success, for
 > > technical information on p2 in paint manufacturing.  first, what are
 >the
 > > main p2 technologies....
 > > I am looking for detailed case studies showing costs of installation,
 >costs of
 > > operations, and savings both economically and with reducing wastes
 > > including especially VOC reductions.
 >
 >to which I will reply:
 >
 >Gary -- though I realize I will have my hand slapped (virtually, and
 >probably deservedly) by a certain Harvard faculty member and P2 legend
 >for not reminding you to focus on good methodology, I will nonetheless
 >suggest that P2 case studies, for all their shortcomings, do indeed
 >provide good inspiration for coming up with new solutions.
 >
 >To that end, you might want to check out the Virtual Plant Tour on
 >ChemAlliance (http://www.chemalliance.org/Handbook/plant/index.htm).
 >Sadly, I can't direct you to specific URL's due to the way we designed
 >the plant tour (this is being fixed) but we do have more than 400 case
 >studies that are "visually organized" according to the part of the
 >process they deal with.
 >
 >So to find the case studies you're interested in, click on the link to
 >"Equipment Cleaning" and you'll get a list of compliance issues along
 >with the option to view P2 case studies.  The case studies you will want
 >to review are all in the Equipment Cleaning section, and include:
 >
 >Parr Paints (courtesy of Australian Cleaner Production Clearinghouse)
 >Wattyl (ibid)
 >PPG/Delaware (courtesy, oddly enough, of Ohio EPA)
 >PPG Industries (courtesy of Enviro$ense)
 >Reidpaints Ltd (courtesy of ICPIC)
 >United Coatings (courtesy of WA Dept of Ecology)
 >
 >These all have some useful ideas, and some have cost data of varying
 >quality.  There are other paint-related case studies in the collection,
 >but as a favor to Bob, I've left these as an exercise for the reader,
 >since discovery is an important part of learning.   <grin>
 >
 >Hope this helps.
 >
 >SB
 >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
 >
 >
 >
 >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
 >p2tech is hosted by the Great Lakes Information Network:
 >http://www.great-lakes.net
 >To unsubscribe from this list: send mail to majordomo@great-lakes.net
 >with the command 'unsubscribe p2tech' in the body of your message. No
 >quotes or subject line are required.
 >About : http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/p2tech/p2tech.info
 >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


______________________________________________
Timothy C. Lindsey, Ph.D.
Manager, Pollution Prevention Program
Illinois Waste Management and Research Center
1 E. Hazelwood Drive
Champaign, IL  61820
(217) 333-8940 phone
(217) 333-8944 fax
tlindsey@wmrc.uiuc.edu
wmrc@uiuc.edu
--=====================_24241913==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

         It is too bad that Bob hasn't had the opportunity to learn about 
what we are doing with the technology diffusion initiative.  Otherwise, he 
would know that it is not a "hammers looking for nails" approach to 
addressing problems.  In fact, nothing could be further from the 
truth.  Our model begins with the problem, studies the process that creates 
the problem, then considers solutions that address the problem at the root 
cause level.  Many solutions are incremental in nature while some may 
involve investigating new technology to modernize the operations.  In 
either case, the solutions are developed to address problems at the root 
cause level.
         The real key to the Tech diffusion initiative is that we offer 
assistance with the actual implementation of the recommendations.  Where 
new technologies are involved, we help participants test the technologies 
on site at a pilot scale prior to implementation.  This approach allows 
them to address uncertainty issues associated with performance prior to 
investing capital.  We have acquired data that shows that our approach is 
about 70% effective in cases where we recommend new technologies.  We 
specifically target the leaders in a specific sector to conduct these 
activities with.  We do this for 2 reasons:  1) if the leaders in a sector 
haven't implemented best practices yet - what chance do you have with the 
laggards, and 2) once the leaders have implemented best practices, the rest 
of the sector will soon have to follow to remain competitive.
         We (and many others) are convinced that our methods are 
considerably more effective than alternative approaches where "experts" 
develop long laundry lists of recommendations then leave the client with no 
implementation assistance.  These methods have been proven to be mostly 
ineffective.  You can use your "screws, staples, tape, and glue" if you 
want to.  We will stick with principles developed in science and engineering.


At 03:17 PM 1/28/04 -0500, Robert B. Pojasek wrote:
>I was literally counting to one thousand on Gary's note when I read your
>note, Scott.  I have a lot of experience with paint manufacturing and I have
>rarely asked them to spend capital dollars to save lots of money by
>improving their processes to conserve resource use and dramatically reduce
>wastes, such as VOC emissions.  Reducing electricity use in the dispersion
>step is just HUGE.  It might have something to do that Gary's organization
>is funded for TECHNOLOGY diffusion.  There is a saying that "when you are a
>hammer, everything looks like a nail."  I guess that Scott's caution is that
>there are screws, staples, tape, glue, and a host of other items besides the
>nails and hammers.  Gary might benefit by having the organizations use some
>of these non-capital means to save the money that they can later invest in
>capital equipment.  I hope the funding for the TECHNOLOGY diffusion is for
>many years so you can progress in this way.  After more than 20 years in
>pollution prevention, I feel uncomfortable thinking that we must limit our
>work to P2 Technologies.  If this were true, I am out of business right now.
>
>Bob Pojasek
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Butner, R Scott" <scott.butner@pnl.gov>
>To: <p2tech@great-lakes.net>
>Cc: "Gary Miller" <gmiller@wmrc.uiuc.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 2:49 PM
>Subject: RE: P2 in Paint Manufacturing
>
>
>On an earlier episode of "P2TECH: Waste Scene Investigation," our good
>friend from the Midwest, Gary Miller (gmiller@wmrc.uiuc.edu) asked, in
>part:
>
> > I've been looking in several places, with very little success, for
> > technical information on p2 in paint manufacturing.  first, what are
>the
> > main p2 technologies....
> > I am looking for detailed case studies showing costs of installation,
>costs of
> > operations, and savings both economically and with reducing wastes
> > including especially VOC reductions.
>
>to which I will reply:
>
>Gary -- though I realize I will have my hand slapped (virtually, and
>probably deservedly) by a certain Harvard faculty member and P2 legend
>for not reminding you to focus on good methodology, I will nonetheless
>suggest that P2 case studies, for all their shortcomings, do indeed
>provide good inspiration for coming up with new solutions.
>
>To that end, you might want to check out the Virtual Plant Tour on
>ChemAlliance (http://www.chemalliance.org/Handbook/plant/index.htm).
>Sadly, I can't direct you to specific URL's due to the way we designed
>the plant tour (this is being fixed) but we do have more than 400 case
>studies that are "visually organized" according to the part of the
>process they deal with.
>
>So to find the case studies you're interested in, click on the link to
>"Equipment Cleaning" and you'll get a list of compliance issues along
>with the option to view P2 case studies.  The case studies you will want
>to review are all in the Equipment Cleaning section, and include:
>
>Parr Paints (courtesy of Australian Cleaner Production Clearinghouse)
>Wattyl (ibid)
>PPG/Delaware (courtesy, oddly enough, of Ohio EPA)
>PPG Industries (courtesy of Enviro$ense)
>Reidpaints Ltd (courtesy of ICPIC)
>United Coatings (courtesy of WA Dept of Ecology)
>
>These all have some useful ideas, and some have cost data of varying
>quality.  There are other paint-related case studies in the collection,
>but as a favor to Bob, I've left these as an exercise for the reader,
>since discovery is an important part of learning.   <grin>
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>SB
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>p2tech is hosted by the Great Lakes Information Network:
>http://www.great-lakes.net
>To unsubscribe from this list: send mail to majordomo@great-lakes.net
>with the command 'unsubscribe p2tech' in the body of your message. No
>quotes or subject line are required.
>About : http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/p2tech/p2tech.info
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


______________________________________________
Timothy C. Lindsey, Ph.D.
Manager, Pollution Prevention Program
Illinois Waste Management and Research Center
1 E. Hazelwood Drive
Champaign, IL  61820
(217) 333-8940 phone
(217) 333-8944 fax
tlindsey@wmrc.uiuc.edu
wmrc@uiuc.edu
--=====================_24241913==.ALT--

------------------------------
Laura L. Barnes
List Manager
listman@wmrc.uiuc.edu
(217) 333-8957 lbarnes@wmrc.uiuc.edu 


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p2tech is hosted by the Great Lakes Information Network:
http://www.great-lakes.net
To unsubscribe from this list: send mail to majordomo@great-lakes.net
with the command 'unsubscribe p2tech' in the body of your message. No
quotes or subject line are required.
About : http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/p2tech/p2tech.info
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